Communism versus Socialism

I recently stumbled across an interesting site which had posted the usual far-right rhetoric regarding communism and related topics. The following is the exchange of comments posted to the site thus far.

Communism isn't socialism. Socialism has enjoyed tremendous success in many countries, starting with northern Europe. Brian Ragle | Homepage | 01.09.08 - 3:52 am | #

What is the difference between the two? Answer. Name alone. Socialism's 'successes' are destroying their host nations or have already destroyed them (Zimbabwe). Both in economic terms and in terms of individual liberty. Example - Britain's "Self Care" initiative. It has all the hallmarks of a dictat from the Kremlin minus the Soviet SOCIALIST Republic part (USSR)! It should be called "we still take the taxes, but you have to treat your own medical problems". Lovely. I suppose if you define success as "created the largest government bureacracies and aid rolls while destroying self reliance and invdividual freedoms", then you might have a point. The Valiant Elephant | Homepage | 01.09.08 - 1:42 pm | #

Actually, quite the opposite. Sweden, for example, enjoys a Socialist government and has similar standards of living to the US, along with similar economic trends. The standard of living can even be argued to surpass that of the US, with far more tolerance and civil liberty than we currently have as we rapidly approach a nanny/police state. How Socialism differs from Communism is a subject which has filled whole books. Communism is an offshoot of Socialism, of course, but differs in methodology. The failings of communism in the 20th century and beyond can easily be seen as the governments not getting beyond the "revolutionary dictatorship" envisioned by Marx, which contrasts sharply with the longer term, more passive methods of other socialist in changing a society. The end goals of both are the overthrow or reformation of capitalism, but with dramatically different approaches. Thus, while communist governments have either failed or are in serious jeopardy of falling, various forms and aspects of other socialist approaches live on and thrive. Brian Ragle | Homepage | 01.09.08 - 7:51 pm | #

Sweden is a poor example of "far more tolerance and civil liberty" considering, for example, that the state owns all alchohol production, and confiscates smuggled booze in such a capacity as to be able to turn around and sell it for fuel! Recently Swedish mothers decided that they wanted more say in the lives or their children who are more or less wards of the state from birth. Just because Swedens socialism hasn't reached critical mass and become the practical equivalent of North Korea's grand socialist experiment doesn't mean that it won't eventually happen either. Capitalism is not a system imposed upon individuals. It is the government staying the fuck out of business between individual citizens aka FREEDOM. Socialism requires state control of commerce and dependency upon the state - the recession of freedom. You are seriously ignorant of the past. Socialism and it's inherent reliance on state control has given birth to more than one notorious fascist regime. The Valiant Elephant | Homepage | 01.10.08 - 8:05 am | #

Sweden owns all alcohol production and the US has ultra-restrictive laws on marijuana. The game of comparing law for law is not going to aid your assertion that Socialism is inherently bad while the US has it all figure out, especially when we take into account the last 8 years in the US. In the meantime, capitalism IS a system imposed upon individuals. The big complaint of the last few years has been companies moving their operations out of the country or outsourcing specific jobs to lower paid workers in those countries. This is a natural aspect of capitalism, especially without government regulation of it. Immediate action by the government in the history of the US is what prevented monopolistic control of markets, price fixing and collusion between manufacturers, and institution of health and safety standards for both workers and manufactured goods. This doesn't take into account the effects of imposed capitalism on the countries being outsourced to by American companies. We've all seen the stories of sweatshop operations or heard how low the pay is for workers. The buzzword is globalism, but it's really just an effect of unregulated capitalism at work. The fact is that aside from examples of Socialism in good use in countries like Sweden and Norway, many countries have adopted mixtures of socialism and capitalism in order to offset the inherent weaknesses of both systems. Brian Ragle | Homepage | 01.10.08 - 2:40 pm | #

"Sweden owns all alcohol production and the US has ultra-restrictive laws on marijuana. " And the two aren't even close to the same thing. The United States does not sell marijuana on top of prohibiting it's sale in the private sector. Sweden's government DOES sell alchohol. No comparison. Sorry. "The game of comparing law for law is not going to aid your assertion that Socialism is inherently bad while the US has it all figure out, " I didn't make either assertion and there is no need for you to shift the goal posts. "especially when we take into account the last 8 years in the US." Ok, you're a dipshit. "In the meantime, capitalism IS a system imposed upon individuals." No. It isn't. Further proof you wear your ass for a hat. "The big complaint of the last few years has been companies moving their operations out of the country or outsourcing specific jobs to lower paid workers in those countries." And who IMPOSED this on anyone? Not a mother fucking soul! The individuals moving these companies were FREE to do so. The people working at the new locations might not share the same level of freedom in their country that we in the USA do, but unless their gov't held a gun to their head and forced them to work there (which only happens in lovely socialist paradises), the people working in the new locations (by and large) benefit greatly from the new jobs despite receiving a lower wage than the US worker who lost that job because that same amount of money has more purchasing power where they live. "This is a natural aspect of capitalism," Horse shit. "especially without government regulation of it." Ah yes! Government regulation is "freedom"? NO! It is the opposite. Thank you for proving my point. "Immediate action by the government in the history of the US is what prevented monopolistic control of markets, price fixing and collusion between manufacturers, and institution of health and safety standards for both workers and manufactured goods." In regards to price fixing and collusion - business can oly charge what the market is willing to pay. If they charge too much, they lose business. Free market principles 101. Government has shaped the relationship between employer and employee in the past, and that has produced beneficial results on occasion. That does not mean that it such issues would not have worked themselves out naturally minus government intervention. I'll readily concede that government regulation can be a positive influence as long as minimalism is the goal. Citing monopolies is also a piss poor example in support of your premise as government is often the king-maker granting favor to the powerful at the expense of smaller enterprise. "This doesn't take into account the effects of imposed capitalism" There is no such thing. That you even think such a thing exits shows your amazingly ignorance of economic principles. "on the countr The Valiant Elephant | Homepage | 01.10.08 - 5:33 pm | #

"on the countries being outsourced to by American companies." The countries being outsourced to do not "impose" capitalism. In fact, one of the biggest boogey men of you anti-free-traders is CHINA a COMMUNIST country. It isn't capitalism being IMPOSED there, comrade. "We've all seen the stories of sweatshop operations or heard how low the pay is for workers." Yeah, and most of them are bullshit. The vast majority of the time, when a business sets up shop in another country it is a net BENEFIT to the people there. They trip over themselves at the opportunity to make a wage (which we in the USA may consider inferior, but) they consider a blessing. "The buzzword is globalism, but it's really just an effect of unregulated capitalism at work." UNREGULATED - FREE MARKET. No imposition. If they didn't want to work for the wage offered, (in the VAST majority of cases) they would not. "The fact is that aside from examples of Socialism in good use in countries like Sweden" Good use as defined by an economic idiot - state MONOPOLY of an industry and confiscation of property. Nice. "and Norway," Norway's socialist experiment in the realm of health care is going swimmingly. Overcapicity, paying "consultation fees" for FREE health care. You've swallowed your bullshit well. "many countries have adopted mixtures of socialism and capitalism in order to offset the inherent weaknesses of both systems." Capitalism aka freedom has no inherent weakness. It is only when government intrudes upon the market that you end up with irreconcilable inequities. Socialism, however, IS an arbitrary system imposed on the free choices people make. Socialism exists at the expense of freedom and capitalism. We are done here, Mr "past 8 years". The Valiant Elephant | Homepage | 01.10.08 - 5:34 pm | #

***And the two aren't even close to the same thing. The United States does not sell marijuana on top of prohibiting it's sale in the private sector. Sweden's government DOES sell alchohol. No comparison. Sorry.***

Again, incorrect. The US government has grown and sold marijuana for decades for research and medical purposes. There are even still individuals who receive a monthly shipment of marijuana cigarettes from the federal government under the auspices of previous medical programs.

***And who IMPOSED this on anyone? Not a mother fucking soul! The individuals moving these companies were FREE to do so. The people working at the new locations might not share the same level of freedom in their country that we in the USA do, but unless their gov't held a gun to their head and forced them to work there (which only happens in lovely socialist paradises), the people working in the new locations (by and large) benefit greatly from the new jobs despite receiving a lower wage than the US worker who lost that job because that same amount of money has more purchasing power where they live.***

There are different ways of holding a gun to someone's head.

***Ah yes! Government regulation is "freedom"? NO! It is the opposite. Thank you for proving my point.***

You are the one bringing up "freedom". You are also proving my point that there is no such thing in even the US where business is concerned.

***In regards to price fixing and collusion - business can oly charge what the market is willing to pay. If they charge too much, they lose business. Free market principles 101. Government has shaped the relationship between employer and employee in the past, and that has produced beneficial results on occasion. That does not mean that it such issues would not have worked themselves out naturally minus government intervention. I'll readily concede that government regulation can be a positive influence as long as minimalism is the goal. Citing monopolies is also a piss poor example in support of your premise as government is often the king-maker granting favor to the powerful at the expense of smaller enterprise.***

Actually, that is incorrect as well. The government can and does put price controls in place, regardless of what the market is willing to pay. There are minimum mark-up requirements between manufacturers all the way down to retail stores. This is direct control. There is also indirect control in the form of the tax structure in place at various levels.

***The countries being outsourced to do not "impose" capitalism. In fact, one of the biggest boogey men of you anti-free-traders is CHINA a COMMUNIST country. It isn't capitalism being IMPOSED there, comrade.***

Again, you are confusing communism with socialism.

***Yeah, and most of them are bullshit. The vast majority of the time, when a business sets up shop in another country it is a net BENEFIT to the people there. They trip over themselves at the opportunity to make a wage (which we in the USA may consider inferior, but) they consider a blessing.***

So, which do you want? Benefit to foreign workers or wages paid to American workers? It appears that under capitalism, you can't have both and, in fact, you are getting neither.

***UNREGULATED - FREE MARKET. No imposition. If they didn't want to work for the wage offered, (in the VAST majority of cases) they would not.***

Hunger and sub-human poverty levels make for powerful motivators to take any position offered. Those same conditions are also the result of the control over international markets by first world nations.

***Good use as defined by an economic idiot - state MONOPOLY of an industry and confiscation of property. Nice.

"and Norway,"

Norway's socialist experiment in the realm of health care is going swimmingly. Overcapicity, paying "consultation fees" for FREE health care. You've swallowed your bullshit well.***

Nevertheless, they are not the tyrannical, fascist regimes you have mischaracterized socialist governments as.

***Capitalism aka freedom has no inherent weakness. It is only when government intrudes upon the market that you end up with irreconcilable inequities. Socialism, however, IS an arbitrary system imposed on the free choices people make. Socialism exists at the expense of freedom and capitalism.

We are done here, Mr "past 8 years".***

Capitalism is not "freedom" in the religious sense you seem to apply to the word. Capitalism is the method of leveraging what resources one has in order to gain more resources. Thus, those with resources are able to profit while those without are left being profited from. The freedom granted by capitalism is only available for those with the capacity to effectively leverage it to their advantage. Those at the bottom of the food chain invariably find themselves with less freedom to maneuver as their singular pursuits become merely keeping afloat.